пароходы РАК

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пароходы РАК

Глокий Куздр: Доброе время суток, уважаемое сообщество. Пару недель назад запостил в жежешечке любительский материал по пароходам Российско-американской компании http://gloky-koozdr.livejournal.com/2228.html#cutid1 Многим наверное материал покажется детским лепетом, но всё же очень хочется глубже копнуть тему. Особенно интересуют закупленные в САСШ винтовые суда(Император Александр II, Великий князь Константин), - они случаем в сиб. флотилию не вошли потом? А также загадочный железный пароход разрушенный союзниками на стапеле в Аяне. Может быть ув. AvM прольёт свет?

Ответов - 119, стр: 1 2 3 4 All

Гайдукъ: Глокий Куздр Прекрасное исследованные. Виден подход и достаточно глубокая проработка. Успехов в поиске информации.

Глокий Куздр: Гайдукъ пишет: Успехов в поиске информации. Спасибо. Насчёт поиска - в штатах не очень давно был защищён целый диссер по теме (а все колониальные архивы РАК хранятся на Аляске и Библиотеке конгресса), но попытка выйти на автора закончилась полным фэйлом (не идёт человек на контакт). Так что пока вся надежда на наших спецов.

vvy: Написано живо (местами даже слишком живо). Однако, имеется ряд спорных утверждений. Если не возражаете, обращу на них Ваше внимание. 1. «Кстати, Ново-Архангельское адмиралтейство построило не только первый пароход в регионе, но и вообще - было единственной верфью здесь (от мыса Горн до берингова пролива), вплоть до появления первых маленьких верфей на Колумбии и в Сан-Франциско (т.е. примерно до крымской войны).» Это не так. У той же РАК была еще вторая верфь в форте Росс в Калифорнии. 2. «Начавшаяся война не слишком усложнила жизнь Колонии. Во-первых ещё задолго до войны между РАК и КГЗ был заключен своего рода «пакт о ненападении», в соответствии с которым ни та, ни другая сторона не вмешивались в борьбу метрополий…» Ничего себе не осложнила! А потеря компанейского корабля «Ситха» с грузом на сумму свыше миллиона франков, захваченного союзниками? 3. «Судя по сильному для своего водоизмещения вооружению, корабль фактически являлся колониальной канонерской лодкой…» Вряд ли. Указанное Вами для «ВК Константина» водоизмещение в 368 т ошибочно. Это его чистая вместимость (368 нрт). По водоизмещению он не сильно отличался от «Александра». 4. «Вероятнее всего здесь на переднем плане виден «Император Александр II», т.к. сложно представить что «Великий князь Константин» при своих скромных размерах мог быть трёхмачтовым.» А почему «скромных»? «Константин» был всего на 3 метра короче «Александра» - 46 и 49 м (грубо). Глокий Куздр пишет: Особенно интересуют закупленные в САСШ винтовые суда(Император Александр II, Великий князь Константин), - они случаем в сиб. флотилию не вошли потом? Нет, не вошли. "Александр" мне последний раз встретился в известной «Выписке из корабельного списка коммерческих судов, приписанных к Владивостокскому торговому порту, составленной на август 1895 г.», где его владельцем числится купец 1-й гильдии Александр Филиппеус. Однако смущает примечание: «Продан американцам». Если продан, почему еще состоит в списке?

vvy: Да, вопрос: почему у статьи нет автора?

Глокий Куздр: vvy пишет: Написано живо (местами даже слишком живо) Издержки "жанра, - "бложный" формат. vvy пишет: Это не так. У той же РАК была еще вторая верфь в форте Росс в Калифорнии. Вы абсолютно правы. Посыпаю голову пеплом. Может быть я ещё какие-то верфи упустил? vvy пишет: Ничего себе не осложнила! А потеря компанейского корабля «Ситха» с грузом на сумму свыше миллиона франков, захваченного союзниками? Всё познаётся в сравнении: например активы на азиатской стороне океана, и сами эти воды, не подпадали под договор о нейтралитете РАК и КГЗ, и их судьба красноречиво говорит о том, чего удалось избежать основной части Колоний. Думаю про английские художества в Аяне, на Курилах, и о судьбе "Ситхи" и "Охотска" рассказывать не надо. Проще говоря, если бы не договорённости, союзники просто уничтожили бы Колонии "от и до", полностью. В общем, цена заплаченная РАК за войну, на фоне вполне реальной угрозы полного уничтожения, имхо, смехотворна. vvy пишет: Указанное Вами для «ВК Константина» водоизмещение в 368 т ошибочно. Это его чистая вместимость (368 нрт). По водоизмещению он не сильно отличался от «Александра». vvy пишет: А почему «скромных»? «Константин» был всего на 3 метра короче «Александра» - 46 и 49 м (грубо). Думаю вы заметили что все данные о корабле, которыми я располагал - это две цифры: Водоизмещение - 368 тонн, машина в 75 сил. Если бы я располагал данными о водоизмещении и длине, которыми располагаете вы, я наверное не допустил со своей стороны таких сомнительных предположений, не так ли? Кстати, могли бы вы поделится источником этих данных, и вообще, подсказать, где "рыть"? vvy пишет: "Александр" мне последний раз встретился в известной «Выписке из корабельного списка коммерческих судов, приписанных к Владивостокскому торговому порту, составленной на август 1895 г.», где его владельцем числится купец 1-й гильдии Александр Филиппеус. Однако смущает примечание: «Продан американцам». Если продан, почему еще состоит в списке? А это точно тот "Александр"? Наберусь наглости... А на саму выписку можно взглянуть, если она сохранилась? vvy пишет: Да, вопрос: почему у статьи нет автора? В смысле, ФИО не указано? А зачем?

Ромуальд: выписку по Владивостоку на 1895 г. не видел - только на 1901 и 1908 гг. поэтому не знаю поможет ли такой фактик (нужного парохода касается или нет ?). амер. деревянная двухмачтовая зверобойная шхуна «JАМЕS HAMILTON LEVIS» (дата и место постройки ?). Приписка Сан - Франциско. 07.1890 г. на промысле котиков в 4 милях от Командорских о-вов ушла от попытки досмотра рус. п / х «АЛЕКСАНДР». 21.07.1891 г. взята рус. паровой шхуной «АЛЕУТ» за браконьерство у Командорских о – вов (на борту 424 шкуры котиков). Если он (в источнике про Император уже не слова) на лето 1890 г. еще точно русский. С другой стороны других паровых Александров в то время на ДВ на ум что - то не приходит. Китобоец Кейзерлинга с этим именем только летом 1895 г. объявился.

Глокий Куздр: Ромуальд пишет: Если он (в источнике про Император уже не слова) на лето 1890 г. еще точно русский. С другой стороны других паровых Александров в то время на ДВ на ум что - то не приходит. Китобоец Кейзерлинга с этим именем только летом 1895 г. объявился. Спасибо за информацию, но всё же пока не ясно - "он, или не он". Будем дальше смотреть.

vvy: Глокий Куздр пишет: Может быть я ещё какие-то верфи упустил? Не знаю. Иностранная промышленность, которая не строила суда, ходившие потом под русским флагом, меня не интересует. Глокий Куздр пишет: В общем, цена заплаченная РАК за войну, на фоне вполне реальной угрозы полного уничтожения, имхо, смехотворна. В этом разрезе - несомненно. Но есть нюанс. Глокий Куздр пишет: Если бы я располагал данными о водоизмещении и длине, которыми располагаете вы, я наверное не допустил со своей стороны таких сомнительных предположений, не так ли? Т.е. мне не стоило указывать на эти ошибки? Глокий Куздр пишет: стати, могли бы вы поделится источником этих данных, и вообще, подсказать, где "рыть"? По "Александру" были данные в регистровой книге Ллойда 1886-87 (есть в ЦВМБ). Сейчас пробовал отыскать в таких же книгах за 1882-83 и 1888-89 (есть у меня), но сходу не нашел - видимо как-то хитро поименован по английски. По "Константину" сложнее. В ллойдах я его не находил, а краткие данные по нему лет 15 назад мне присылали зарубежные коллеги. Глокий Куздр пишет: А это точно тот "Александр"? Несомненно. Глокий Куздр пишет: А на саму выписку можно взглянуть, если она сохранилась? На "Выписку..." взглянуть не получится, у меня ее нет. В докомпьютерные времена я разнес данные из нее по карточкам, чем и пользуюсь. Глокий Куздр пишет: В смысле, ФИО не указано? А зачем? Полезно во многих смыслах. Например, дисциплинирует - появляется ответственность. А то анонимка какая-то...

Гайдукъ: vvy пишет: не стоило указывать на эти ошибки? Виктор Виниаминович - несомненно стоило. Вы всеми признаный знаток истории российского судоходства потому все всегда благодарны за правки и помощь оказываемую молодым (?) авторам. Думаю коллега всего навсего посетовал на отсутствие у него всего спектра архивных данных по этим судам. СУ ГАА

vvy: Гайдукъ пишет: Думаю коллега всего навсего посетовал на отсутствие у него всего спектра архивных данных по этим судам. Так и у меня этого нет. Даже приблизительно...

Глокий Куздр: vvy пишет: Т.е. мне не стоило указывать на эти ошибки? Как справедливо предположил Алексей Гайдук, я просто сетовал на скудность своих источников. Если бы у меня были данные о длине судов, я бы не ляпнул ту ошибку, на которую вы указали. vvy пишет: Полезно во многих смыслах. Например, дисциплинирует - появляется ответственность. А то анонимка какая-то... На цусиме, в ветке "кто есть кто" я свои данные оставлял. Если это так принципиально, то продублирую здесь: Царёв Илья Андреевич, 26 лет, заканчивал истфак ННГУ.

vvy: Глокий Куздр пишет: Если это так принципиально, то продублирую здесь: Царёв Илья Андреевич, 26 лет, заканчивал истфак ННГУ. Хорошо бы поместить под заголовком статьи. По «Императору Александру II». К сожалению, в свое время я не записал, как он был поименован в RL 1886-87. Сейчас смотрел в 1882-83 и 1888-89 на «Aleksandr», «Alexandr», «Emperor» и «Imperator» - ничего похожего нет.

Геоморфолог: Глокий Куздр пишет: а все колониальные архивы РАК хранятся на Аляске и Библиотеке конгресса) Илья! А Вы прсматривали Архив Министерства военно-морского флота СССР (проект по иностранным микрофильмам) (БК) Документы Российско-американской компании из коллекции Г.В. Юдина (БК) и некоторые другие документы из http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfdigcol/mfdigcol.htmlclick here

Глокий Куздр: vvy пишет: Хорошо бы поместить под заголовком статьи. В жж-публикации в этом нет никакой необходимости. Да и просто не принято. Геоморфолог пишет: А Вы прсматривали С этим проектом я конечно же знаком. Но там если и есть документы, то довольно-таки ранние. За 1840-1860 ничего не попадалось.

VAS63: Глокий Куздр пишет: Пару недель назад запостил в жежешечке любительский материал по пароходам Российско-американской компании Тема-то какая популярная оказалась... (прошу прощения за качество, снимал на мобильник)

Глокий Куздр: VAS63 пишет: (прошу прощения за качество, снимал на мобильник) Спасибо! Эх, эта литография Смирнова у меня в чуть лучшем качестве, но в черно-белом варианте есть, из американской книжки. Она 1850-х годов, и там с самого края, справа, под берегом колёсный пароход в профиль стоит (если я её не путаю с другим видом города). Её бы, да в хорошем качестве...

amba: Глокий Куздр, смущает "целиком и полностью" в отношении п/х "Баранов". Цилиндры для его машины были выписаны из Калифорнии.

vvy: VAS63 пишет: Тема-то какая популярная оказалась... Данилыч перехватил тему, блин. Глокий Куздр пишет: эта литография Смирнова у меня в чуть лучшем качестве Вряд ли - в ЦВММ лежит оригинал, которым пользовался Климовский. Да, хочу спросить Вас, коллега: размерения пароходов Вы уже брали в метрах или переводили из футов и дюймов? Если последнее - не могли бы тут выложить в оригинальных единицах, а то имеются некоторые неясности.

Глокий Куздр: vvy пишет: Данилыч перехватил тему, блин. Ноосфера, такскать... "Перехватил" - значит "дело закрыто"? amba пишет: смущает "целиком и полностью" в отношении п/х "Баранов". Цилиндры для его машины были выписаны из Калифорнии. Угу. У Болховитинова об этом вроде есть. Спасибо что подметили ошибку. vvy пишет: Вряд ли - в ЦВММ лежит оригинал, которым пользовался Климовский. Это-то как раз понятно. Оригинал наверняка шикарен. А вот воспроизведение его в судостроении и других изданиях - не очень. В американской книжке литография воспроизведена так (скан из сети): Красной стрелочкой указан предмет интереса. Думаю, даже если отсканировать статью в Судостроении в наилучшем виде, вряд ли там судно можно разглядеть лучше. А вот на оригинале...только Климовскому ведомо. vvy пишет: размерения пароходов Вы уже брали в метрах или переводили из футов и дюймов? В источниках они конечно в футах. Николай I(1): Длина по палубе: 132 фута, ширина вместе с кожухами: 49 футов, длина по килю 120 футов, ширина корпуса 20 ф, углубление – 9 ф. Баранов (1): длина 52 ф., ширина 11 ф. Баранов (2): 67 ф в длину, 11 футов в ширину Данные - из документов РАК, т.е. футы - русские. Политковский (данные из сети), какие и чьи футы - не имею представления, к сожалению: , 125.5 ft. long, 21.3 ft. wide, 8.9 ft. deep На второй "Николай" у меня цифири к сожалению нет.

vvy: Глокий Куздр пишет: "Перехватил" - значит "дело закрыто"? Надо сперва прочитать статью, а потом делать выводы - стоит тему развивать или она исчерпана. До меня журнал еще не дошел. Глокий Куздр пишет: Думаю, даже если отсканировать статью в Судостроении в наилучшем виде, вряд ли там судно можно разглядеть лучше. А вот на оригинале...только Климовскому ведомо. Если выберусь в этом году в Питер, могу попросить оригинальный скан у Н. Афонина (если, опять же, не забуду среди кучи прочих дел, которые на меня обычно наваливаются в Питере) - редактора отдела истории журнала. Глокий Куздр пишет: В источниках они конечно в футах. Ага, теперь понятно.

vvy: Глокий Куздр пишет: На второй "Николай" у меня цифири к сожалению нет. Вероятно, на первый?

Глокий Куздр: vvy пишет: Вероятно, на первый? Прошу прощения, в предыдущем посте описка. Цифирь там именно на первый "НиколаЙ" (исправил), а на второй у меня действительно нет данных.

vvy: Глокий Куздр пишет: второй у меня действительно нет данных. У меня тоже. Только вместимость (32,5 ласта) и мощность (6о сил). Ну, про "Мур" я и не вспоминаю.

AvM: Astoria wooden screw steamer ON1739 1855 New York, N. Y 428bm . 1855 reg. New York, N. Y 29.11.1856 Sold Russian, ; becoming Alexander II 23.4.1868 redocumented Alexander, under Alaska Purchase Treaty. 1.4.1876 Sold foreign 1879 rebuilt & re-engined by American owners 1879 reportedly placed under Russian flag for Siberian trade 1894-1898 under Hawaiian flag, .reg #308 295/280 204.6x41.2x15.7ft 7.3.1899 Redocumented, ie US Flag 13.8.1906 stranded Cape Parry, NWT

AvM: The Artizan, Band 13 1855 p.129 Steam-barque "Astoria."—Mr. William H. Webb, of this city, has just completed a propeller for the trade from San Francisco to Citta in the Pacific Ocean. She is built in the very best manner, and is deserving of notice from the circumstance that she is the first vessel completed in this country with the propeller fitted to hoist out. DIMENSIONS, ETC., OF STEAM-PROPELLER "ASTORIA." Hull by Wm. H, Webb, New York; Engines by Hogg and Delamata, ditto. Length on deck from fore-part of stem to after-part of stern-post above the spar-deck 160 ft. Breadth of beam at midship section (moulded) 25 „ Depth of hold 12 „ Tonnage 500 tons. Description of engines, vertical direct; do. boiler, return fined. Diameter of cylinders, 26 inches ; length of stroke, 2 feet 6 inches; diameter of screw (Griffiths'), 9 feet; pitch of do., 16 feet; number of blades, 2; 1 boiler; length of do., 22 feet; breadth of do., 8 feet 6 inches ; height of do., exclusive of steam-chimney, 9 feet 6 inches; number of furnaces, 2; length of grate-bars, 6 feet 6 inches; number of lower flues, 10; internal diameter of upper do., 1 foot 7 inches; diameter of smoke-pipe, 3 feet; height of do., 24 feet; heating surface, 1.200 feet; combustion, natural draught; draught of water at loadlino, 8 feet 6 inches; area of immersed midship section at this draught, 127 feet 6 inches. Floor-timbers at throats, moulded, 12*5 ipches; do. do., sided, 8 inches; distance, of frames apart at centres, 30 inches. Masts and rig, barque. Intended service, San Francisco to Citta. Description of coal, bituminous. Remarks.—Floors are filled in solid; frame strapped with diagonal and double-laid iron braces, 3$ X 3 inch. Is fitted with a well for the hoisting out of propeller.

AvM: Bureau Veritas 1878-9 Alexander Wooden screw barque 1855 Wm.A. Webb, New York 331grt 295nrt 160.4x23.9x13.5ft 200nhp Alaska Commercial Co., San Francisco

AvM: CONSTANTINE iron screw steamer ON5688 (USA) 1855 Newcastle, England 319 Formerly Russian Constantine admitted by treaty 20.6.1867 19.12.1867 documented Sitka, Alaska 1887 Abandoned

AvM: CONSTANTINE iron screw steamer 1854 Newcastle, England 495grt 320nrt 149.6x20.0x7.5 125nhp URL 1874/5 Hutchinson , Kohl & Co. , S.Francisco BV 1878/9 Goodall, Nelson & Perkins Steamship Co., S.Francisco URL 1884/5 Goodall, Nelson & Perkins, S.Francisco

AvM: Politkofsky wooden paddle ON20304 (USA) 1863 built Sitka, Alaska 152bm Built as Russian Politkofsky admitted by Treaty of 6/20/67; documented 15.01.1868 Sitka, Alaska 10.8.1897 . Rig changed to schooner (ie beacame sailing vessel) Rose wooden screw ON110234 (USA) 1867 Sitka, Alaska 45t 1867 Sitka, Alaska "Apparently built as schooner and converted to steam, 31.5.1872, though some sources say built as Russian steamer Baranof before Alaska purchase" 1897 Abandoned Fideliter iron screw ON27658 (UK) ON9833 (USA) 1859 Jones, Liverpool UK 142grt/96nrt 121.0x18.4x8.5 USA 175t 131x20x10 (hold) oscillating 40nho 27'x36'' 1859 James Harbridge ,Liverpool #171 (1861 S. W. Ward ,Liverpool) 26.6.1863 Vancouver Coal Mining Co.,London "Admitted as former Russian Fideliter by Treaty of 20.6.1867, but seemingly admeasured at Portland, Ore., 11.06.1866; 10/25/67 documented, ie Sitka, Alaska 1869, Seized by U.S., for allegedly fraudulent documentation" 24.10.1876 stranded Cuffey's Cove, Cal (20 lives lost) LRS 1864 Fidelter iron screw 1859 Jones, Liverpool 142grt/96nrt 120.0x18.0x9.0 40nhp G.Campbell, London (Liv.Africa)

AvM: Steamboat Bill of Facts: Official Journal of the Steamship Historical Society of America, Summer 1959 p 34,57 Lewis & Dryden's "Marine History of the Pacific Northwest" New York 1961 Lytle & Holdcamper Merchant Steam Vessels of the United States 1790-1868 New York 1975 PS. this is 2nd editions, Supplements #1 (1978) #2 (1982) # 3(1984) British Registers 1863-70 LLoyd's registe of Shipping 1859-72

AvM: Niles' national register, Band 75 , 1849 Russian America—Our Pacific Settlements:— Russian America, the only part of our continent held by the Sclavonic race has to our Republic been almost an unknown land. Still an American is there, Mr. Moore, whose employment is to instruct,lhe natives born of Russian parents, how to build steam engines, and steam vessels for that far distant coast. This steam voyaging will connect them with Oregon, and California, and thence by our new line with Panama, and thence again by the present existing line with Valparaiso in Chili. The western coast of America, both North and South, will then have a continuous line of steamers from near Behring's Straits down to near Cape Horn! though the eastern coast of our continent has no such continuous line by steam. "Westward the star of Empire Jaks its way j" and the West coast of America is destined to witness mighty things, overlooking the virgin Pacific to China, Japan, Siberia, ani the Australian shores beyond. A voyager entering the port of Archangel found there the following mercantile fleet. It speaks of life, of energy, and the speed of civilization: 1. Helen 350 tons. 2. Alexander 300 3. Sitka 300 4. Bichal 200 5. Constantino 200 6. Ochotsk 150 7. Chii-hakoff 150 8. Polypheme 150 9. Promysle 80 tons. 10. Morischold 80 11. Quapak 80 12.Nicolas , steamer 60 horse power. 13. Moore , steamer, 7 horse do. 14 & 15. Two other small steamers. This would do credit to many a proud port in Europe or the United States. We must learn more about that land. Her fleet is occupied almost exclusively on those northern shores—above the famous 54 40. running to the Aleutian Isles, In the Kurile Isles which reach to Japan, to Kamschatka, and to Ochotsk in Siberia, except an occasional trip to Oregon for flour, or to the Sandwich Islands for sugar and other supplies. Sir George Simpson, Governor of the great northern British portion of our continent, speaks of the establishment of Mr. Moore, the American in the employ of Russia, in terms of high commendation; the entire work of an engine, the casting, forging and finishing being finely done. "He is a man of superior ingenuity, and has taught five or six natives to do the work almost as well as himself." New Archangel, the capital of Russian America, i» shoaled on the Island of Sitka, which is separated from the main land by a narrow arm of the sea. Its population is about 1500, besides two Indian suburban villages. Smaller posts are siationcd at many points along the coast all the way to the peninsula of Alaska, and thence even along the chain of Aleutian Islands, which form the natural stepping stones to Siberia. Recently some posts hare been formed on Bshrmg's Straits! to protect the fur trade on the east aide from the Schuklchi. These are the d.veilers on the western side, and once a year at the great fair at Ottroj-noye in S.beria, they purchase tobacco and other articles, and with these they are powerful competitors, every summer, with the Russian company, among the extreme northwestern Indians of ojr continent.

Dirk:

AvM: De Bow's review, Band 8 5. SHIP BUILDING, AC., IN NEW YORK. Ship Building During The Year 1849.— Messrs. Smith and Dimon have launched one clipper ship of 600 tons, which is now nearly ready for sea. She has not yet received a name, but belongs to a company at St. Petersburg. I think she could be NIKOLAY I (1850) USA 297 89/95bm ?

Глокий Куздр: AvM спасибо огромное!!! Thank you very much! AvM пишет: 13. Moore , steamer, 7 horse do. 14 & 15. Two other small steamers. Oh sh... "two other small steamers"?! Challenging information. AvM пишет: "Fideliter ... Admitted as former Russian Fideliter by Treaty of 20.6.1867, Another one. By the way, Constantine is rather misty vessel. There is no information about builder(yard) in any register. All is known that she was built on Clyde in Newcastle, but there wasn't any ship launched named "Constantine" from 1854 to 1856 on any yard. And that "Constantine" is not existed in lloyd registers (in american only). As she was purchased in UK during Crimean war, I suppose that she was launched with fake name for the fake customer but I didn't recognized yet her first name. AvM пишет: think she could be NIKOLAY I (1850) USA 297 89/95bm ? Exactly

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: AvM пишет: "Fideliter ... Admitted as former Russian Fideliter by Treaty of 20.6.1867,` Another one. Fideliter was not owned by Russian-American Company Глокий Куздр пишет: All is known that she was built on Clyde in Newcastle, but there wasn't any ship launched named "Constantine" from 1854 to 1856 on any yard. Clyde is a river in Scotland . There are such shipbuilding cities as Glasgow, Port Glasgow, Greenock. Newcastle is a town in England, lying on the river Tyne. The r are South Shields and North Shields on Tyne estuary. Where have any information she was built on Clyde? Глокий Куздр пишет: And that "Constantine" is not existed in lloyd registers (in american only). Lloyd's of that ere did not listed all ships , even not all English vessels. Nearly all are listed in "Merchant Navy List", published since 1850, there are also no any Constantine Глокий Куздр пишет: As she was purchased in UK during Crimean war, I suppose that she was launched with fake name for the fake customer but I didn't recognized yet her first name. I do not believe Russia was able to buy any vessels during the War. If she was built in 1854 as most of the sources listed , she could be purchased in 1856 , ie not directly built for Russian-American Company.

AvM: American Lloyd's Register of American and Foreign Shipping 1881 Record of American and Foreign Shipping 1881 Constantine built 10.1854 Newcastle, England

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Newcastle is a town in England, lying on the river Tyne. Sorry, I mean Tyne of course, not Clyde. AvM пишет: I do not believe Russia was able to buy any vessels during the War. If she was built in 1854 as most of the sources listed , she could be purchased in 1856 , ie not directly built for Russian-American Company. Yes, it looks like it was impossible to by a vessel in UK, but in reports of RAC said "was built for company". So, there are two ways: she was just purchased, or she was ordered in 1854 through Hamburg department of RAC and person affiliated to it (by some fake customer) and rised RAC flag only in 1856 (but war in that moment still continued) AvM пишет: American Lloyd's Register of American and Foreign Shipping 1881 Yes, that is a register I told about. Constantine is traced in this US registers from 1870.

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: Yes, it looks like it was impossible to by a vessel in UK, but in reports of RAC said "was built for company". So, there are two ways: she was just purchased, or she was ordered in 1854 through Hamburg department of RAC and person affiliated to it (by some fake customer) and rised RAC flag only in 1856 (but war in that moment still continued) There was in England and especially in allied navies (France, Italian navies) lack of transportship , especially steam, so I do not believe that was not possible to order any vessels in England in 1854, perhaps in 1853. I have asked some best specialists from UK, but till now she was not traced.

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: I have asked some best specialists from UK, but till now she was not traced. I had an idea to list all tyne-built iron screwers in 1854-65, and try to trace through registers few of them, wich probaly had become the Constantine in 1856 but... its such a great job. Can't make myself start

AvM: There are not yard lists of all Tyne iron builders of that time :(

AvM: In Russkoe Sudokhodstvo Hamburg steamer IDA was chartered by Russian American Company and left Kronstadt 22.06.1856 (old style) for Sitka. IDA 1856 Toward, Newcastle 141 CL 161x24.2x14.10 hamburgian foots 70nhp 16.2.1856 cert. Johann Friedrich Renatus Heinrich Sturm, Hamburg 1856 Hamburg-St.Petresburg 1856 London -Sitka- ?? 1860 served in Russia Perhaps: BPP lists & LRS 1856 Ida iron screw bark rigged 1856 Newcastle 637grt 509nrt 186.8x26.6x15.9 70nhp 1856 reg London for Wm. Nicholas de Mattos listed 57 - 59 LRS not listed 1857

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Hamburg steamer IDA was chartered and left Kronstadt 22.06.1856 (old style) Bingo! In American register Constantine is brig rigged, but Ida, I suppose, is the only candidate to be the Constantine. She was built on Palmer's shipyard, so it is a good start point for further researh Thank you again!

AvM: I do not really believe :( No any data are same !

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: I do not really believe :( No any data are same ! Data for Constantine in the same Am. reg. but for different years are also not same (for example: 1870 displ-320 t. 1872 - 450 t.) By the way, I made smth like a list of Tyne built ships, wich may be the Const. Builder-year-ship (sail, paddle, wooden, and also all obviosly "not-Constantines" are canceled from list from Boutland to Mitchell, but Palmer, Smith, and Toward not checked yet): WM Boutland, Bill Quay (1818 - 1879) 1853 George 1854 Crimea no in Lloyd 1854 Glenaen - no in lloyd Coutts & Parkinson, Willington Quay (1850 - 1854) 1853 Sorrento no in lloyd 1854 Tynemouth no in lloyd 1855 Queen Victoria no in lloyd D / H Andrew Leslie, Hebburn (1854 - 1885) (iron sh. builder) 1855 Tyne 1856 Batchiska &!! No in lloyd Charles Mitchell & Co, Lo3 1854 Will o' the Wisp no in lloyd 3 masts 1854 Cagliari no in lloyd 3 masts 1854 Earl of Durham screw iron 554 t (1858 lloyd) 1854 Hetton no in lloyd 1854 Hesperus no in lloyd boucht by admirality 1855 Killingworth screw iron 607 t (lloyd 1858) 1855 Jackal no in lloyd 3 masts 1855 Albert no in lloyd sistership of Montagu 3 masts 1855 Montagu no in lloyd sistership of albert 3 masts 1855 Balder no in lloyd 1856 Pollux screw iron 369 t 3 masts 1856 General Codrington screw iron 460 t (1858 lloyd) 3 masts 1856 George Robert no in lloyd 1856 St George srew iron 458 t owner mitchell newcastl - hamburg 1856 Eupatoria no in lloyd 3 masts 1856 Paris screw iron 413 t (1858 lloyd) 2 mast 1856 Luna paris – sistership 2 mast 1856 Helios iron screw 470 t. master holt 70 hp hamburg (lloyd 1857-1859) 3 masts (first name COMET) 1856 Hambourg screw iron 410 75 hp havre france paris, luna – sisterhips 2 mast 1856 Oder no in lloyd 1856 Vistula no in lloyd 1856 Otteren no in lloyd 1856 Mutlah no in lloyd 1856 Planet no in lloyd Palmer Brothers & Co, Jarrow (1852 - 1865) 10 1854 Marley Hill 11 1854 Pioneer 12 1854 Ross D Mangles 13 1854 Nicholas Wood 14 1854 Isabella Croll 15 1854 Volunteer 17 1855 Dragon (TT) D / H 18 1854 Dragon 19 1854 Cochrane 20 1854 Alice 21 1855 Samuel Laing 22 1854 Champion 23 1854 Black Boy 25 1855 Stella 26 1855 Whitley Park 27 1855 Black Sea 28 1855 Normanby 29 1855 Rosedale 30 1855 Warrior 31 1855 Elba 32 1855 George Hawkins 33 1855 Brenda 34 1855 Hutton Chaytor 35 1856 Minna 36 1855 Napoleon (TT) D / H 37 1855 Sylph (TT) D / H 38 1855 Earsdon 39 1855 Sardinian 40 1855 Allies 41 1855 Brigadier 42 1856 Tyne 43 1856 Marmora 44 1856 Punch 45 1856 Russian D / H 46 1856 Ida 47 1856 St Petersburg D / H 48 1856 Stronstadt 49 1856 Brighton 50 1856 Moscow D / H 51 1856 Alfred (TT) D / H 52 1856 Terror Thomas & William Smith, Limekilns Shore, North Shields (1845 - 1890) 1 1854 Zingari D / H 2 1854 Zouave 1855 Victoria 1855 Gitana D / H 1855 Chasseur 1855 Despatch 1855 Eugenie 1856 Beirout 1856 Enterprize 1856 Sepoy D / H / P 1856 Erne D / H / P 1856 Spider D / H / P 1856 Lively D / H / P 1856 Surley D / H / P 1856 Swan D / H / P 1856 Watchful D / H 1856 Woodcock D / H 1856 Gosforth Toward, St Peter's, Newcastle (1850 - 1855) (iron paddlers) 1853 Queen of the Isles 1854 Cumbria 1854 Arbutus Huge list (and obviosly not complete), really? Iron two-masted screwers of Mitchell (Paris, Luna, Hamburg) looks like a good candidates (if Ida is not what we are looking for). a. Most of Mitchell iron screwers of that period were built for russian and Hamburg customers (just few for France and UK) b. Mitchell had plant in St. Petersburg. c. Mitchell (along with Palmer) - the best iron screwers builder of the 1850s. I don't really believe that Constantine was built on one of the small yards. I suppose it was Mitchell or Palmer (Ida or maybe Luna (or her sisterships)

AvM: Tyne could by also Marshall, which you have not on lists, and some more from South and Nort Shields.

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Tyne could by also Marshall, which you have not on lists, and some more from South and Nort Shields. I used that resource: http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/Shipbuilders.html I listed all yards on Tyne existed in 1853-1856, and canceled from the list some of them which didn't built iron and screw vessels. Marshal was also cancelled, becouse his screwers were not "Constantine's" (due to registers, that site, etc)

AvM: The list are far to be complete T.D Marshall for example lack: 1858 Russian steamer (paddle) DUZHIY (from memory)

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: The list are far to be complete Obviosly yes, it is Anyway, the list is too huge. I think it nearly impossimble to find "Constantine" without russian sources of RAC.

AvM: I have for example not in these lists Baron von Humboldt iron screw 2 mast schooner 1854 T.D.Marshall, South Shields 334grt 239nrt 136.4x25.0x12.9ft 60 nhp 7.10.1854 reg Newcastle 22.12.54 reg London for William S. Andrews Used in Crimean War Operations to built a Balaklava railroad Lady Alice, Lambton, screw-steamer, 511 tons, 90-horse power; Great Northern, ditto, 578 tons, 90-horse; Earl of Durham, ditto, 554 tons., 9P-horse; Baron von Humboldt, ditto, 420 tons, 60horse; Hesperus, ditto, 800 tons, 150-horse; Prince of Wales, ditto, 627 tons, 120-horse; Levant, paddle-steamer, 694 tons, 500-horse; Wildfire, clipper sailing ship, 457 tons; Mohawk, ditto, 850 tons. 1855 in Navy Lists 1857 listed as owned by "The Crown" BUFFALO (ex-Baron von Humboldt) Iron screw storeship, 440bm, 137 × -ft. Txfrom Treasury Dept 5.9.1855 and renamed . 1868 to Victualing Dept. 1.1.1888 sold

AvM: San Joaquin Republican, published as Weekly San Joaquin Republican; Date: 02-21-1857; Volume: 3; Issue: 14; Page: [2]; Location: Stockton, California The hamburg Steamer Ida, Capt. Oxterdunger, arrived at San Francisco from Hamburg, on the 17th inst, via Montevideo and Valparaiso She is for Sitka , with stores for Russian territiores.

AvM: Daily News (London, England), Tuesday, September 4, 1855; Issue 2900. reported about steamer Constantine which on 1st September arrived from Amsterdam to Hamburg officially with sugar (but de facto with 1500,000lbs of lead) , evidently smuggling contraband for Russia.

AvM: Daily News (London, England), Tuesday, September 4, 1855; Issue 2900. reported about steamer Constantine which on 1st September arrived from Amsterdam to Hamburg officially with sugar (but de facto with 1500,000lbs of lead) , evidently smuggling contraband for Russia.

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: reported about steamer Constantine which on 1st September arrived from Amsterdam to Hamburg officially with sugar (but de facto with 1500,000lbs of lead) , evidently smuggling contraband for Russia. So, you think Ida=Constantine?

AvM: No!

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: No! Oops. And what is your version?

AvM: Actually I am trying to trace all sailing ships powned by the company.

AvM: :) http://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/maritime/expeditions/kadyak.html

AvM: http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/261.html#261.2 261.2 RECORDS OF THE RUSSIAN-AMERICAN COMPANY 1802, 1817-67 23 lin. ft. History: The Russian-American Company was established by Czar Paul I, July 8, 1799, with de facto political authority and a monopoly of trade in Russia's North American possessions, principally Alaska. It was administered by a board of directors in St. Petersburg, with control of affairs in Alaska by appointed governors general. Alaska headquarters of the company was established at Sitka in 1799. Except for the period 1802-4, when an Indian revolt drove out the Russians, Sitka remained company headquarters until Alaska was sold to the United States in 1867. Under terms of a treaty concluded March 30, 1867 (15 Stat. 541), "any Government archives, papers, and documents relative to the territory and dominion aforesaid, which may now be existing there," were transferred to the United States. Textual Records (92 vols.): Letters sent to the board of directors in St. Petersburg and to subordinate local settlements, relating to native tribes, the Hudson's Bay Company, fur prices, transportation, food and supplies, farming and animal husbandry, and vital statistics, 1818-67. Letters received from the board of directors, relating to fur, trade, fisheries, native tribes, boundaries, and the Russian Orthodox Church, April 18, 1802 (only), 1817-66. Logs of company ships on the voyages to California, Siberia, China, the Hawaiian Islands, and Russia, 1850-67. Journals of explorations of Lt. Lavrentii A. Zagoskin into the lower Yukon basin and the southwestern mainland of Alaska, 1842-44; and of Capt. N. Arkhimandritov on Kodiak Island, Norton Sound, and the Pribilof Islands, June-August 1860, July- August 1864. Microfilm Publications: M11. Finding Aids: Daniel T. Goggin, comp., "Preliminary Inventory of the Records of Former Russian Agencies: Records of the Russian- American Company," NC 40 (1963

AvM: http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/kadyak/rusala.html The selling of Alaska to the United States did not erase the history of Russian commercial interest in Alaska, and the wreck of Kad'yak is probably just one small part of underwater remains that the Russians have left behind. Kad'yak is the only Russian American Company shipwreck that has certainly been identified, though remains near St. Michael on the Yukon Delta may prove to be those of another Russian American ship, called Politkofsky. Fifty-two Russian wrecks in the North Pacific have also been documented, and of those, roughly 49 have been identified tentatively based on their locations. East Carolina University archaeologists are currently working to identify the sites that are accessible, and they hope to investigateother potential sites connected with the Russian American Company in the future.

Глокий Куздр: Yes, sailing ships are very, very interesting too By the way, AvM, may be you have an opportunity to have a look into "Hamburger Segelschiffe von 1795- 1945"?

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: By the way, AvM, may be you have an opportunity to have a look into "Hamburger Segelschiffe von 1795- 1945"? You are thinking about the book of late Dr.Meyer? But there are nearly complete lists of all seagoing Hamburg ships by Walter Kresse. avm

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: But there are nearly complete lists of all seagoing Hamburg ships by Walter Kresse Here is a list of saling vessels of RAC built in Germany (in Hamburg and Lubeck mostly) -Elizaveta (1820) -Tsesarevitch (1850s) -Kadiak (1850s) -Shelekhov (1850s) -Sitkha (1850s) May be it will be interesting for you to have a look for them.

Глокий Куздр: By the way, the hamburg companion of RAC was Christian Friedrich Schütt (in one source, but in RAC report he called Штурм (Schturm)). This may help in research.

Глокий Куздр: Rare picture of RAC sailing ships: Bark Nikolai I (built in Abo) and brig Constantine (built in US). Mid. 1840s

AvM: Nikolay I bark 1836 Abo Skeppsvarf 450t ; 208 CL 1841 sold Naseldnik Aleksandr 1837 Abo 300t Atkha bark (Atka) 1847 Abo Skeppsvarf 450 215 CL (sw) 119.65x32.00x16.00 swft 1847 Atka E.Julin & Co 1846-1853 chartered Sitkha barque (Sitka) 1846 Abo Skeppsvarf 450t 216 CL (sw) 115.30x31.00x16.50 swft 1846 Sitka E.Julin & Co 1846-1853 chartered

AvM: Suvurov (Suwarrow, Sovarow) ??? New York, NY, USA built 335t Ex ?? 1813 bought Kronstadt from US shipowner 1818 sold ? perhaps: Suwarrow 303t NY offered for sale 1811 built 1807 303t North River LRS 1814 Suwarrow S 303t Mass 1807 Hamilton 16ft LiTrtol 2-6C ie she was in that time in Europe Other ships with that name LRS 1814 Suwarrow Sw 220 US built 1787 years Libbard 12ft LoBaltic LRS 1816 Suwarrow Sw 220 US built ?? years Libbard 12ft LoBaltic LRS 1818, 1819, 1820 Suwarrow Sw 188 US built 15 years J.Burrell 12ft LoLisbon Suworoff Bg 175 US built ??? Stiglitz &Co 11ft WnCanrs

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Suvurov (Suwarrow, Sovarow) Ship "Суворов" (Suvurof, in name of glorious general) as I know, was a built in France, and suposed to be an ex-prize of napoleonic wars. She made her forst voyage under russian colours in 1813.

AvM: The names Suwarrow, Suvurov ,Sovarow are those used by various papers of the era.

AvM: Neue Münchener Zeitung 1854 Preußen. — Die .P-euß. Korr." vom 13. d. sagt: .Aus Memel wird uns ge,chrieben, daß die englische Damxffregat e »Amphion' am 10. d. M. um S Uhr Morgens die dortige Rhede verlassen hat, nachdem die Mannschaft an, Sonntage noch bis spät Abend« an der Einsetzung de« neuen BesanmafteS gearbeitet hatte. Bon Dampfschiffen find am S. .Riga' und .Lübeck» von Lübeck, und am 10. ,R,b»R°y' vonHull, beide mit Gütern beladen, dort eingelaufen. Die am 4 d. M, von Lübeck angekommene Gloop, die .Neue Hoffnung', welche Wein, darun» ter vielen Champagner, und Kartoffeln für die französische Flotte ge» laden hat, liegt noch im Hafen, weil der Kapitän noch nicht weiß, ob er selbst die Flotte aufsuchen, oder sein« Ladung dem zurückerwarteten Darnpfboote .Erogroßberzog Friedrich Franz' zum Weitertransport übergeben soll. Die Proviantbefrachtung teS oben genannten Dampf« boote« so wie der Sioop ist nicht für Rechnung der franzöftfchen Ne» gierung, sondern auf Spekulation geschehen. — Mit dem preußischen Dampsboot .Friedrich Wilhelm IV." waren von Königsberg her t>9 -l.n,,1ilt <!5, >,i'<!k:-t.V >" I -h? 1'" N5?I'< » - s..'"' '>'.-'" Mann, die Besatzung russischer in Lübeck uud Hamburg liegender Schiffe, in Metrie! angekommen, welche nach Rußland Weiler befördert werten. ES sind darunter 34 Mann von dem der russischen Kompagnie in Pe» teröburg gehörigen Schiffe .Czarewitsch', Kapitän Goorgin, welches sich mit einer reichen Ladung Thee und Seide, trotz der Vigilanz der eng» lifchen Kriegsschiffe, nach Hamburg glücklich durchgeschlichen hat. DaS Schiff soll halb Kauffarthei» halb Kriegsschiff sein und im Ganzen 70 Mann Besatzung haben. Unter diesen liö Königsberg per Eisen» bahn tranSportirten Leuten befindet sich auch die Mannschaft der drei nach Riga gehörenden und in Lübeck liegenden Schiffe: .E^po', .Presto' und .Anna". — Dem Memeler Lootfen»Komrnandeur sind von einem »»bekannten Geber SV Thlr. zur Aushändigung an den alten Fischer übergeben worden, welcher die Leiche de« verunglückten Kapitän Koot vom .Konflikt aufgefunden'hat. — Am Sonntag Bormittag wurde auch Memel von einem heftigen Ungewitter heimgesucht. In Folge der star» ken Regengüsse hat da« in der Umgegend kräftig stehende Getreide sich fehr gelagert; doch besorgt man keinen erheblichen Schaden, da da« Wetter sich zu bessern scheint.'

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Neue Münchener Zeitung 1854 Oh, great, thanks but OCR of the text is not very good. Is it possible to have a look on the original scan of the paper.

AvM: It is from: http://books.google.de/books?id=8ClEAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PR36&dq=Schiffe+.Czarewitsch&hl=de&sa=X&ei=5XX4T9feHYzKtAaN68CoBQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Schiffe%20.Czarewitsch&f=false From Archives of Lübeck: KODIAK mit 238 1/4 Lübscher Lasten und Metallboden. Neubau für Amerika - Petersburger Gesellschaft. 17.7.1851 Bescheinigung des Baumeisters, 19.7.1851 Bielbrief (Bauschein von der Werft) und 26.7.1851 Schiffspassage nach St. Petersburg. Später wrack in Alaska vorgefunden und soll eventuell gehoben werden.

AvM: LRS 1803 Leander ship built River ie Thames 4 years old 430t draft 18ft owner Campbell master G.Brown voyage LoGrnda in Supplement data as below LRS 1804 Nadeyde ship built River ie Thames 5 years old 430t draft 18ft owner Russia Co master J.Wilson voyage LoPtrsbg

AvM: The Naval Chronicle, Band 12 (1805) As time were no Ships in Russia fit for the purpose, it was resolved that two should be purchased in England. Captain-Lieutenant Usianski, destined to command one of the Vessels belonging to the expedition, was for this purpose sent with M. Rasumof, an eminent Ship-builder, to this country, where they bought, for 5000I. sterling, the Leander of 470 tons, three years old; and for 17,0001., the Thames, of +30 tons, built twenty months. The sheathing with copper, and the repairing of these Ships, cost about 5000I. more. The name of the former was changed to the Nadeibda (the Hope), and the other to that of the Neva, and both were to proceed to Cronstadt at •oon as the season would permit. The names of the Officers appointed to the Nadeshda were as follow :— Krusenstern, Captain-Lieutenant, Commander. Radmonof, ^ loloval'ef, [lieutenant,. Lovenstern, * Bellingshausen, Midshipman. Kamenschikof, Pilot. Bistram, Garde Marine. Dr. Espenberg, Surgeon. Those appointed to the Neva were: Lisianski, Captain-Lieutenant, Commander. Arbusof, Lieutenant. Dmiofikoi,} Midshipmen. Kalinin, Pilot.

AvM: From British documents Thames (1800) 372bm She should be the same with LRS 1803 Thames ship built River 3 years old 332t 16ft draft owned Taylor & Co master W.Lindner voy LoHamburg

AvM: In 1799 on the Thames were built CAMDEN 430t WELLERBY 457t HANOVER 447t AUGUSTUS CESAR 412t so very probably LEANDER was one of them.

AvM: I have found P.E.Mestaer , Rotherhithe built ship THAMES for South Seas 374t lauchned 14.12.1803 now a sloop of War

AvM: Das eLieber Herr von Mach, leider kann ich nicht viel beitragen. Zur Russian-American Company habe ich keine Erkenntnisse. Es war mir neu, daß Weser-Schiffe bzw. deutsche Schiffe dorthin verkauft worden sind.inzige Schiff, das ich identifizieren kann, ist die SHELEKHOV barque ex LINA. Diese wurde 1845 von Rickmers in Bremerhaven für Hamburger Auftraggeber gebaut. Was ich über die LINA weiß, ist in "Von der Weser in die Welt" Band III S.214 zu finden. Den Verbleib des Schiffes wußte ich bisher nicht. Im übrigen bat mich Herr Walter, Ihnen seine Antwort auf Ihre Fragen zu übermitteln. Das mache ich hier: "Bei der Shelekhov brig handelt es sich höchstwahrscheinlich um die Brig Johann Christoph, gebaut 1852 von Ernst Dreyer in Altona für C. H. Donner in Altona, 136 CL. Karting (Von Altona nach Übersee, Band 2, Bremen 1999 S. 77) beschreibt den Lebenslauf sehr detailliert. Danach war das Schiff hauptsächlich in der chinesischen Küstenfahrt eingesetzt und ging 1866 wieder von Hamburg nach Fernost. Karting schließt: 'Im "Verzeichnis der Altonaer Schiffe" von 1868 ist das Schiff noch verzeichnet, 1869 nicht mehr. Sein Schicksal ist unbekannt.' Sollte es sich hier tatsächlich um Ihr Schiff handeln, wäre ich Ihnen für folgende Informationen sehr dankbar: Jahr der Umbenennung, neuer Name, Schicksal des Schiffes. Zur Kamchatka hatte ich einen Ausdruck aus dem Malmstein-Register des Norsk Maritim Museum Oslo, wonach das Schiff 1908 abgebrochen worden ist. Nähere Angaben fehlen mir, leider kann ich zZt auch das NMM aus irgendeinem Grund nicht aufrufen. Hier wäre ich Ihnen für Angaben zum Bauort sehr dankbar, weil das Schiff zumindest nach dieser Quelle nicht umbenannt worden ist. Die anderen Schiffe kann ich leider nicht identifizieren." So weit Herr Walter. Dr. Peter-Michael Pawlik LINA bark 23.4.1845 Rickmers, Bremerhaven #11 120CL 293grt 27,2x8,1x4,4m Andreson, Höber & Co, Hamburg 20.5.1845 Hamburg-Cadiz-S.America , master P.Knudsen 1846/7 Hull-Valpariaiso 1849 sold

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: By the way, the hamburg companion of RAC was Christian Friedrich Schütt (in one source, but in RAC report he called Штурм (Schturm)). This may help in research. Chronik des Hamburger See-Assecuranz-Geschäftes ... 1824-25: listed C.P.V. Schütt F. Schütt in Havana I have found only some ships of the latter. In 1815 i have found C.F. Schütt in Breslau (acting London via Hamburg)

AvM: Sun, page [1], vol. XXXVIII, iss. 17 Publication Date: December 7, 1855 Published as: The Sun Location: Baltimore, Maryland December 7, 1855 FRANCE The Rothschilds have purchased the Russian prize ship SITKA for 8,000 pounds.

AvM: Terrible Shipwreck and Loss of Eleven Lives. By the arrival of the steamer Moses Taylor, Oct 22d, we have the following distressing account of human suffering and loss of life at sea. The brig Shelehqff, Capt. Hopken, it will be remembered, took a cargo of cattle from these Islands to Tahiti in December of last year. The following statement from the pen of H. M. Whitney, Esq., who was a passenger by the steamer, will be read with absorbing interest: On Thursday, Oct 19th, at 8 A. M., a sail was discovered by the wheelman on the steamer Moses Taylor. The vessel lay directly in the steamer's track, and appeared to be disabled, having but one mast standing, and only her lower topsail set, running before a fresh southeast wind. On approaching her, it proved to be a brig, water-logged, with her mainmast carried away, apparently deserted, no persons appearing in sight on board. * » * * It proved to be the American brig Shelehoff, 213 tons register, of San Francisco, bound to Callao with a cargo of lumber. The Burvivor was Capt. Luder Hopken, the last of twelve persons on board at the time of the disaster. The brig was caught in a cyclono on the night of July 3d, the same date of the solar eclipse. * » * * The accident occurred in N. lat. 16 and W. long. The following paper was prepared by Captain Hopken, Sept 10th, on board the brig, to be left in case no one survived. It gives the list of crew and passengers: American brig Shelehoff'. of San Francisco, wu water-logged on the 8d of July, 1871, in a hurricane, lat. 16° north and long. 117 o west Was afloat till Sept.— This was written on the 10th Sept 1871, 70 days at sea. Capt Luder Hopken, Master, San Francisco; Mate, T. Johnson, of Schleswig Holstein; Second Mate, James MacCarley, Port Petrice, Migdonshire; Steward, Phillip Dunn, S»n Francisco. Seamen— Levedore Police, Rebosto Sicilia, Mitchell Velago, Bajerro Calabria, Italy; Andrew Larssen, Sweden; Lona Lewis Nessen, Flcnsburg, Germany. Cabin passengers—Ashley Crane, Charles Davis, San Francisco; Charles Kurtz, Tubingen, Germany— [New York papers copy] Bartholomew Clawell, native of Charlevillo, Department de Sardensu, (France?) Written on board the brig Shelehoff, Monday, Sept 10, 1871. We have suffered hard from hunger and thirst. Crew, passengers and officers beg to send this to San Francisco, and publish in the papers. In the Nautical Almanao were found the following entries: July 3d, cyclone; vessel waterlogged. Sept. 6th, Andrew Larssen died ; Sept 18th, Lewis Nessen died ; Sept. 22d. Bart. Clawell died ; Sept 21st, on the wreck 80 days ; 92 days from San Francisco. No rain. Nothing to eat. Saturday, Sept. 30.—We are on the wreck 89 days. Four dead. Please advertise this in papers. Monday, Oct. 15.—105 days on the wreck. All hands dead, except the Captain and one j Crane.

AvM: SHILEHOFF (1870); SHELEHOFF (1871; 1872; 1873; 1875; 1876; 1877; 1878) RIG: B r ig OFFICIAL NO: 23734 SIGNAL LETTERS: J. G. L .H. GROSS: 213.45 (1870; 1871; 1872; 1873; 1875; 1876; 1877; 1878) HOME PORT: San Francisco, CA (1870); Eureka, CA (1871; 1872; 1873); San Francisco, CA (1875; 1876; 1877; 1878) YEARS LISTED: 1870 ; 1871; 1872; 1873; 1875; 1876; 1877; 1878. NOTES: Listed as wrecked in 1871

AvM: GEORGE S.WRIGHT steamer ON 10374 1863 Port Ludlow, Wash. 214t or 289t In Siberia for Russian-American Telegraph Company 1866-1868 Carried mail to Alaska reg Port Angeles, Wash. Lost , with all on board in 1873

AvM: Tsaritsa 1854 Geo. Raynes Portsmouth,NH 1089t (USR) or 946t 178.4x36.2x17.9ft Ex Coeur de Lion May’56 coppered 1858 W.F.Parrot ,Boston, USA reported sold Hamburg 1857 1861 ???; Hamburgh

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Tsaritsa 1854 Geo. Raynes Portsmouth,NH 1089t (USR) or 946t 178.4x36.2x17.9ft Ex Coeur de Lion May’56 coppered 1858 W.F.Parrot ,Boston, USA reported sold Hamburg 1857 1861 ???; Hamburgh By the way, Tsaritsa - the only RAC big sailing ship with plans existed, because Chapelle made a line plan of her from half-hull modell. She (Coeur de Lion) was purchased by RAC in 1860 in Hamburg and after 1867 flew under swedish colors and with russian name. Wrecked in 1915 near south Sweden. And again to Ida and Constantin. Take a look on this online auction catalog file http://www.grafficserver.de/wag/downloads/61-63/1644-1760.pdf The resolution of the documents scans is very poor, but may be its real to read some text?

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: so very probably LEANDER was one of them. According to the memoirs of members of expedition, in 1799 Leander probably was not built but just recaptured. Captured in 1796 by french privateer L'Egyptienne, and recaptured two years later.

AvM: AvM пишет: Tsaritsa 1854 Geo. Raynes Portsmouth,NH 1089t (USR) or 946t 178.4x36.2x17.9ft Ex Coeur de Lion May’56 coppered 1858 W.F.Parrot ,Boston, USA reported sold Hamburg 1857 registered Boston 31 Jan 1854 Boston #34 Coeur de Lion ship 1089 50/94t W.F.Parrot , Boston surrednded : abroad 25 Sep 1858 rem from reg 25 March 1859 I have not found her registered at Hamburg (German) nor Bremen area. so perhaps sodl already 1858 direct tu Russian company mentioned by Reinemuth, Rolf. Segel aus Downeast. Herford 1971 "Zaritza" Swedish flag 1876 (I will check it later)

AvM: AvM пишет: LRS 1803 Leander ship built River ie Thames 4 years old 430t draft 18ft owner Campbell master G.Brown voyage LoGrnda in Supplement data as below I have Leander reg London 20 November 1799 #460 Built Deptford 1799 Master: Charles Anderson 429 72/94t reg London 23 November 1801 #455 Built Deptford 1799 Master: George Brown 429 72/94t registry closed 4.4.1803 Sold to foreginers

AvM: AvM пишет: From British documents Thames (1800) 372bm She should be the same with LRS 1803 Thames ship built River 3 years old 332t 16ft draft owned Taylor & Co master W.Lindner voy LoHamburg This Thames reg London #321 22 Aug 1800 master William Linder 372 1/94t reg London #61 19 Feb 1802 master William Linder 357 62/94tt Sold to foreigners

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Built Deptford 1799 Very likely the episode with L'Egyptienne is just a legend. How knows

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: AvM пишет: цитата:Built Deptford 1799 Very likely the episode with L'Egyptienne is just a legend. How knows ?? My data are from The National Archives, Kew , list of ships registered in London. Where you have L'Egyptienne?

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Where you have L'Egyptienne? From the report of RAC memeber Shemelin to direction of company and also the meeting with this french privateer mentioned in memoir of Levenshtern (another member of expedition). Capt. of L'Egyptienne told russians that he had captured that ship (Nadezhda) in 1796 and loosed in 1799. But the words of french capt. probably were not true. We cant be sure.

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: ?? By the way... Did you had a look on the action papers about capt. Ofterdinger (link above)? If Ida don't treced anywhere after 1856-57, may she is really the Constantin?

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: AvM пишет: цитата:?? By the way... Did you had a look on the action papers about capt. Ofterdinger (link above)? If Ida don't treced anywhere after 1856-57, may she is really the Constantin? I have found a steamer (no nation given) Constantine trying to bring via Hamburg to Russia smuggle war material during Crimea War. We have suggested that she was Dutch one, but not as such traced.

AvM: It is only compilation 1810 Wigram & Green, Blackwall ship CAESAR Reg London #418/1810 21 Sept 1810 626 41/94 J.Fowler, master Reg London #509/1810 4. Dec 1810 626 41/94 J.Fowler, master voyages London-Jamaica Reg London #304/1817 21. Nov 1811 609 44/94 J.Taylor, master voyages London-Bengal c Okt 1818 purchased by Russian American Company Borodino c 1827 Owner:Muller&Co Master: Morrosof -> Mentrup Served as convict ship to LO NSW 1828 Master: Mentrup Served as convict ship Co (Cork?) NSW 1830 not listed

AvM: privateer ship Caesar master Fowler,Jonathan 626t armed: 20x18&12 license: 1810 November 10 privateer ship Caesar master Shand,James 626t armed: 20x18&12 license: 1812 October 13

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: By the way, Tsaritsa - the only RAC big sailing ship with plans existed, because Chapelle made a line plan of her from half-hull modell. Zaritza there is a drawing and reconstruction plan in Nautical Reseach Journal No.15 p. 33-37 "A painting of COEUR DE LION is now located in the Smithsonian Institution, it is not on general display to the public, but thanks to James Knowles I was able to photograph it. The painting is a fine piece of work and some details were found to correspond with the MacLean article. The bulwarks and longboat hid the water tanks, sad to say, and I have not the slightest idea as to their form. The painting did show the poop deck, her guns on plain view, these must have been no more than six-pounders, more like four. I doubt if she could handle the load of larger guns that far aft. The wheel seems to be on iron standards, I drew this up on the plan sheet, but will add that I am not sure of this point. Her bulwarks were panelled, MacLean makes no mention of this but the painting clearly indicates this. In all cases one must regard paintings with caution, the artist may have known nothing about ships, in this case I had MacLean's article for a guide, things work out well."

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: there is a drawing and reconstruction plan in Nautical Reseach Journal No.15 p. 33-37 Very interesting! The plan in the journal made from original plans or reconstructed from hal-model (like Chapelle's)? By the way, I have merged the tiled painting from Smithsonian digital collection. Here it is:

AvM: Winged Arrow clipper 1852 E. & H.O. Briggs ,South Boston 1052rt (old) 933 (new) 2 Aug 1852 Baker & Morrill Boston 30 Nov 1866 reg New York Sold at San Francisco 1868 Went under Russian Flag

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Winged Arrow She delivered all New Archangel russian citizens (more than 300 persons) to St. Petersburg after Alaska was sold

AvM: L.02.09.1845 Newburyport 273; 85CL Angola US 15.10.1845 reg Salem Edward D.Kimball (Elbridge G.Kimball , Benj A.West & Capt Saml Warney Boston Courier; Date: 09-08-1845; Page: 4) 1847 purchased in Honolulu, Hawaii Knyaz Menshikov bark Russian_American Company 17.12.1869 reg S.Francisco (Menschikoff) since whaling , owned Louis Genstle, S.Francisco 223 1/95t 105x23.9x12.3ft 18.09.1872 reg. S.Francisco #12 owned Fredric Clay, S.Francisco ON17963 07.11.1874 enrolled S.Francisco 28.06.1876 reg. S.Francisco #5, owned Fredric Clay, S.Francisco 14.11.1876 reg. S.Francisco #26, owned Fredric Clay, S.Francisco 14.11.1876 reg. S.Francisco #27, owned Orrington Betts 1879 reg Levuka, Fiji, 1879, ON75377 (MENSHIKOFF ) By 1890 reg Sydney, NSW, Chas G. Warburton ,Sydney ,Barque By 189x reg Sydney, NSW, R.McNamara , Sydney ,Barque by 1894 reg. Dunedin, NZ , The Union Steam Ship Co of New Zealand Lim., Barque still listed MNL, 1900

AvM:

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: L.02.09.1845 Newburyport ... still listed MNL, 1900 Wow! Long life

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: AvM пишет: цитата:L.02.09.1845 Newburyport ... still listed MNL, 1900 Wow! Long life Really very interesting :) Please note that all registers after 1870 give her built place as 1847 Baltimore. Similary bark Cyane ex Nakhimoff was also given built in 1848 in Baltimore, I am just trying to localize her origins. There was bark Cyane built 1848 Richmond, Virginia.

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Nakhimoff Its a RAC ship? I dont have it my RAC ships list. Among anothe america-built ships are (i know about): Lapwing (Okhotsk) 1822 Arab (Baikal) 1818 Tally-Ho (Chichagov) 1820-s Brutus (Golovnin) 1809 Lydia (Ilmen)

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: AvM пишет: цитата:L.02.09.1845 Newburyport ... still listed MNL, 1900 Wow! Long life Note the article followed. She extant till 1906, when was broken up.

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: AvM пишет: цитата:Nakhimoff Its a RAC ship? I dont have it my RAC ships list. Of course. Bought 1856. 1867 sold.

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: Among anothe america-built ships are (i know about): Lapwing (Okhotsk) 1822 NOT YET TRACED Глокий Куздр пишет: Arab (Baikal) 1818 Baikal 1818 Thacher Magoun, Medford , Mass 215 or 230t or 225t ex Arab of Captain Thomas Meek ( ?) registered Boston 1824 bought Глокий Куздр пишет: Tally-Ho (Chichagov) 1820-s Chichagov 1824 150t Ex Tally –Ho Josiah Marshall, Boston 1827 bought for 8500 seal skins NOT YET TRACED Глокий Куздр пишет: Brutus (Golovnin) 1809 Galovin brig 1809 Christopher Turner, Frye’s Mills, Salem 199t or 140t built for Nathaniel Garland, Boston owned by Jonathan & Nathaniel Door & 3 partners Ex Brutus of Captain David Nye ( ?) 1819 bought at Sandwich Islands Глокий Куздр пишет: Lydia (Ilmen) NOT YET TRACED ALSO Elena ship (Helena) 1818 New Bedford 400t 110ft2inx28ft7inx14ft 8.1.1819 Helen registered at New Bedford James Hillman & others 1823 bought New Bedford

AvM: ANOTHER TWO NOT CONFIRMED REALLY Amethyst 1801 Enos Briggs, Salem 270t 97ft 1812 bought from Captain T.Meek (?) Perhaps “Truvor “ 200t Ca.1812 bough from Americans Yunona By 1801 Boston built 206t or 250t Ex Juno Bristol., Rhode Island 1812 (?) bought from Captain John D’Wolf ( 1811 wrecked 25sm from Petrapovlosk

AvM: Which ships are here? Kakiey korabli nakhoditsya zdes?

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Which ships are here? 1st - Imperial navy bot (sloop) Kamchadal (about 1842). The only ship built in Alaska for the government and navy, not for RAC purposes. 2nd - steamboat "Baranov" (same time) . It may be also small steamboat "Moor" built by mechanic Moor in New Archangel before the "Baranov" and sold to California. But the author of that picture as i know arrived to Alaska after "Moor" was sold, so it is "Baranov". 3d is signed as i see. By the way, - who is the author of that "Menshikov" picture?

AvM: Глокий Куздр пишет: 1st - Imperial navy bot (sloop) Kamchadal (about 1842). The only ship built in Alaska for the government and navy, not for RAC purposes. Yes, but the hulks , which ships they are? 2nd - steamboat "Baranov" (same time) . It may be also small steamboat "Moor" built by mechanic Moor in New Archangel before the "Baranov" and sold to California. But the author of that picture as i know arrived to Alaska after "Moor" was sold, so it is "Baranov". 3d is signed as i see. By the way, - who is the author of that "Menshikov" picture? I have no data.

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Yes, but the hulks , which ships they are? All ship on 1st picture have RAC crews on board (Kamchadal too, navy crew come on board in Petropavlovsk only). Hulks too. That boats are also mentioned in RAC papers, and during few decades in New Archangel always were two of them for service in Norfolk sound and nearby.

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: I have no data. May be name of book/article is known?

AvM: Richard A.Pierce "Builders of Alaska. The Russian Governors 1818-1867" Kingston, Ontario 1986 Based upon articles from "The Alaska Journal Vol 1:2 ,1971 through Vol 3:1 1973 (here could be pictures with better quality)

AvM:

AvM: Perhaps of that picture exist better one?

Глокий Куздр: AvM пишет: Perhaps of that picture exist better one? I dont know. All reproduction of all that pictures i have seen before are of pure quality. But the picture of Nikola I (the clipper) i had never seen before, thank you. I have only good color reproductions of Kamchadal and Baranov.

Глокий Куздр: Two color version of pictures with Sitka paddlers (but small ones): And paint of clipper in chinese waters (I think it is Tsaritsa). Very small one, from christie's site

AvM: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00253359.2014.962324#.VNY7DEeG98E

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